Need help with the details on a ls1 Head/cam setup please.

[BTM]

I need some help putting together a nice engine setup for my build.

i have decided to go with a heads/cam package through them. i have my eye on the PRC 5.3 stage 2.5 heads, and i think a ms3 cam will suit me.

with the package there are some parts options, which is where i need some help.

springs - the package comes standard with prc .650 springs, but can be upgraded to .675. is the upgrade necessary, worth it, or both? i dont mind spending an extra $60.

LSA - im open to recommendations for this, given the info i provided.

push rod length - im just plain not sure what length i would need. i would think factory, but im a bit lost.

timing chain set - ill need one, but im not sure what to get from their options.

oil pump - ill need one, but again, im not sure what to get from the options.

on top of those parts, i plan to get a set of LS7 lifters, comp cams trunion upgrade, and bolts and gaskets that i will need to assemble the engine.

im in need of advise and help, and thanks in advance.

[whitedime]

Put a donkey dick cam in it.

[1sicws6]

JP Performance makes a nice double roller chain for like 99 bucks. And I would recommend at least a LS6 oil pump. Personally, I went with Texas Speed's ported ls6 pump and I have excellent oil pressure all the time. MS4 ftw :D

[Carbon01GT]

I'd recommend calling or emailing Geoff at EPS -
geoff@engpwrsys.com
(225) 751-8500

The guy knows LSx's and valvetrain is his bread and butter. You can read all over LS1tech about EPS.

[BTM]

Originally Posted by whitedime

Put a donkey dick cam in it.

gotcha, all the info i need!

/thread

[JuicedH22]

Originally Posted by BTM

i have decided to go with a heads/cam package through them. i have my eye on the PRC 5.3 stage 2.5 heads, and i think a ms3 cam will suit me.

You are familiar with KDoes car, he has the PRC 5.3 stg2.5s (milled) and the MS4 cam (which I would also suggest to you over the ms3 cam, since you like going FAST) The Tsunami cam is also a good choice.

Originally Posted by BTM

springs - the package comes standard with prc .650 springs, but can be upgraded to .675. is the upgrade necessary, worth it, or both? i dont mind spending an extra $60.

I would get the 675 springs, that is what i ran, and is a VERY popular kit now (pretty sure is the primary spring kit that Cincy Speed uses?) I just felt like they would last longer, and ensure good closing pressure.

Originally Posted by BTM

LSA - im open to recommendations for this, given the info i provided.

I just chose standard LSA for the given cam on both mine

Originally Posted by BTM

push rod length - im just plain not sure what length i would need. i would think factory, but im a bit lost.

If you dont mill the heads, just use 7.400 (factory length) but upgrade to the PRC chromoly hardened rods. If you mill your heads, I bet KDoe would let you borrow his pushrod length checker to measure appropriate length. OR, if you get the SAME heads as kevin (including milling) just asked what length he used, and plan for those, and still confirm w/ the pushrod length checker.

Originally Posted by BTM

timing chain set - ill need one, but im not sure what to get from their options.

if you're not going for major spray or booost, just get a new factory chain, commonly called the "LS2 chain" which is now the same chain used in LS2/LS3/LS7/LS9. That chain is 40 bucks or so, and should be fine. If you're really worried, upgrade to the Katech C5R chain ($140) which is the chain I used.

Also, get an ls2 timing chain damper, if your block has provision for it.

Originally Posted by BTM

oil pump - ill need one, but again, im not sure what to get from the options.

I bought the Melling 10296 (high volume/pressure) which is a commonly used pump, along with the Melling 10295 (high pressure, standard volume). Some also shim a stock ls6 oil pump, or you can buy a ported ls6 pump from PRC when you make your order.

Originally Posted by BTM

on top of those parts, i plan to get a set of LS7 lifters, comp cams trunion upgrade, and bolts and gaskets that i will need to assemble the engine.

good call on the comp trunion upgrade. If you have questions on the install (it is super easy) check my build thread. If you dont have access to a small press, let me know, and we can go down to the shop and get 'er dun.

Regarding bolts and gaskets, Texas Speed sells Heads/Cam gasket/bolt kits that will come with everything you need, and you can upgrade to ARP hardware if you wish.

[BTM]

i was talking with kevin, and he said his setup is a bit of a pain drivability wise. part of me wants to say fuck it and duplicate it anyway, but then the other side wants a more friendly driver.

so, i guess i should decide to say eff it and go big or not.

[JuicedH22]

Originally Posted by BTM

i was talking with kevin, and he said his setup is a bit of a pain drivability wise. part of me wants to say fuck it and duplicate it anyway, but then the other side wants a more friendly driver.

so, i guess i should decide to say eff it and go big or not.

Kevin is a vagina these days, doesnt even drive his race car anymore... Keep in mind this is the kid who wore earplugs driving the car. Having been in his car, and having a cam much like his, probably more aggressive, I would say an MS4 cam is perfectly streetable. Kevin also being on a 4.10 gear probably makes it seem worse. A LOT of people street drive that cam. Sure it has cam surge at low speeds, and will buck a bit at like 15mph but its not unbearable at all.

I say go for it.

[BTM]

"eff it"

[coolnick]

Cam surge is an utter pain in the ass, avoid those big cams unless you want a bucking nightmare in a parking lot. Stupid no slip clutches make it one bazillion times worse.

Call that Geoff dude at EPS but know what you want before you call so you don't waste his time. And by what you want, I mean a Ray'scar or something with shitpiles of torque. The only problem with him is that it takes at least a month to get a cam from him, even though he tells everyone a week or two. If you have the time to wait go with him. I have a Thunder Racing Trutorq level 3 cam in my car, Geoff from TPS used to be part owner and did all their cam designs. You can't tell there is a cam in my car.

There are about a million different possibilities. If I were you I would go with ease of installation, tuning and driveability. Don't go for some specific power number or anything like that or you will spend extra money on shit you don't need for a car that does not run as absolutely smooth as you want.

Don't get a heads and cam combo that will require flycutting.

Don't get a trunion kit.

Use stock parts wherever possible, such as oil pump, timing chain, etc.

Save a dollar where you can.

Basically, do the exact opposite of what Juicy did or recommends and you should be golden.

[Blue99fbody]

Originally Posted by BTM

I need some help putting together a nice engine setup for my build.

i have decided to go with a heads/cam package through them. i have my eye on the PRC 5.3 stage 2.5 heads, and i think a ms3 cam will suit me.

with the package there are some parts options, which is where i need some help.

springs - the package comes standard with prc .650 springs, but can be upgraded to .675. is the upgrade necessary, worth it, or both? i dont mind spending an extra $60.

LSA - im open to recommendations for this, given the info i provided.

push rod length - im just plain not sure what length i would need. i would think factory, but im a bit lost.

timing chain set - ill need one, but im not sure what to get from their options.

oil pump - ill need one, but again, im not sure what to get from the options.

on top of those parts, i plan to get a set of LS7 lifters, comp cams trunion upgrade, and bolts and gaskets that i will need to assemble the engine.

im in need of advise and help, and thanks in advance.

those heads and the ms3 is an excelent choice. i loved the ms3 i had in my car. i would do a 113 lsa
make sure they know your gonna use the ms3 with them bc i forget what but they do something different with that combo for clearance.

either set of springs would be fine. i got 20k miles with lots of high rpm passes out of the 650 springs with a ms3 (not recommended to go that long) i now run the 675s and just had to replace them @5k miles but lots of high rpm passes with a donkey dick cam.

pushrod length should be measured to be sure.

timing chain i would just do the $40 ls2 chain.

ported ls6 for the oil pump.

[JuicedH22]

Originally Posted by coolnick

Don't get a trunion kit.

Why in the hell would you recommend AGAINST the comp cams trunion kit? it is by far the best insurance policy on an engine build. Anyone who isnt a hippy in recluse, knows that one of hte common lsx failures is the needle bearings coming out of the trunions...

Originally Posted by coolnick

Use stock parts wherever possible, such as oil pump, timing chain, etc.

do NOT reuse the ls1 timing chain, get the OE "ls2 style" like I said... HippyNick is either just fucking with you, or doesnt know WTF he is talkign about. Same with no just using an ls1 oil pump... every single lsx knowledgeable person on this website will recommend at LEAST a ported ls6 oil pump...



However, I do agree with Nick on Geoff at EPS... in fact, I am the one who told coolnick about him... '


Oh, and another choice, if you do like the MS3... I actually had the Vengeance VRX5 which is very similar to the MS3, and I liked that cam.

[Qwk]

Cams are like Opinions.

[JuicedH22]

Originally Posted by Qwk

Cams are like Opinions.

Good Point!!!

BTW Brent, why dont you get Craig or Tracy to give you some info on the BooSSt cam they have. It did make some killer numbers that I saw...

[Kevin Doe]

The reason I recommended against the MS4 cam, is that your car is light. My car bucks pretty bad with the MS4 in it. I've learned to "drive around it" and make it relatively smooth. Put a new driver in there and you damn near get whiplash. Heavier cars with softer engine/drivetrain mounting won't get the bucking nearly as bad as a light car. When I switched from the 3.55 gear to a 4.10 gear the bucking was significantly reduced (due to the rpms going up a few hundred rpm). It could buck worse due to my stiff suspension springs, not sure.

Dave is currently in the "I want to justify my purchases, so I'm pretending that these issues don't bother me phase". I've witnessed him roll through stop signs and otherwise alter his driving just so he doesn't have to stop/start again due to his grabby clutch. He will deny it though, just the same as he denied it when I called him out on it. His car bucks a bit now, but doesn't seem too bad. Previously his car had no bucking, and seemed much more street friendly if you're planning on putting a lot of miles on it.

If you want a street friendly car, I'd suggest a smaller cam that has more midrange. I think the MS3 would be a good choice.

As for heads, I'm pretty happy with the stage 2.5 5.3l heads. Mine are milled, and that combo with the MS4 required flycutting. It was a PITA, but I still have the junk head that I used for the flycutting tool guide, if you'd like to borrow.

[JuicedH22]

Originally Posted by Kevin Doe

He will deny it though, just the same as he denied it when I called him out on it.

I didnt deny it, I told you the REASON had nothing to with the clutch, or bucking, it has to do with the shit tune, and if I stop when the engine is cold, the car dies.... so I rolled through the stop sign, that is in the middle of GE parking area anway, to avoid the car dying and having to restart it. Quit k-doeing up the truth, just to make a story.


I recommended the MS4 because I thought brent planned on RACING his car, at the drag strip, where a max effort style cam would be good... not cruising the parking lots.

But that brings up probably the best point... The cam choice is VERY dependant on what YOU want/plan on doing with the car... Is this for a lot of street driving, a lot of drag racing, road racing, cone chasing like kevin, or a little bit of everything? All of them want a different kind of cam, there is no one good cam...

[Carbon01GT]

Originally Posted by JuicedH22

get the OE "ls2 style" like I said... HippyNick is either just fucking with you, or doesnt know WTF he is talkign about.

Originally Posted by coolnick

Use stock parts wherever possible, such as oil pump, timing chain, etc.

Come on now Dave

Originally Posted by coolnick

Call that Geoff dude at EPS but know what you want before you call so you don't waste his time. And by what you want, I mean a Ray'scar or something with shitpiles of torque. The only problem with him is that it takes at least a month to get a cam from him, even though he tells everyone a week or two.

I ordered mine around the beginning of December and he shipped it out the first couple weeks in January, just as he promised. IIRC, I think he has a patent on their lobe designs, which are suppose to be easier on the valvetrain.
I just called him up and said I want to be in the 400+ whp area, this is what I have done, and I want it to be street-able. I went with the largest option he gave that matched my criteria.
He also talked about his experience with lift and duration on certain setups and what the pros/cons were. I probably talked to him for a good 30-45 minutes one evening. He was very helpful.

[coolnick]

Originally Posted by JuicedH22

Why in the hell would you recommend AGAINST the comp cams trunion kit? it is by far the best insurance policy on an engine build. Anyone who isnt a hippy in recluse, knows that one of hte common lsx failures is the needle bearings coming out of the trunions...

There are lots and lots of fast LSx cars out there without it...

Originally Posted by JuicedH22

do NOT reuse the ls1 timing chain, get the OE "ls2 style" like I said... HippyNick is either just fucking with you, or doesnt know WTF he is talkign about. Same with no just using an ls1 oil pump... every single lsx knowledgeable person on this website will recommend at LEAST a ported ls6 oil pump...

Those are stock parts stupid. I was recommending against the dumb oil pump you have or a double roller chain that he doesn't need.

Anyway, I would do the bare minimum and avoid the ricer laundry list of bullshit parts that add nothing to the build. Get some 243 heads and take them to Jimib.

[JuicedH22]

Originally Posted by coolnick

There are lots and lots of fast LSx cars out there without it...

Yup, I agree. Just 'cheap' insurance IMO for only $130.... but not required.

Originally Posted by coolnick

the dumb oil pump you have or a double roller chain that he doesn't need.

The 'dumb' oil pump I have was CHEAPER than a ported ls6 oil pump, which is why I chose that pump, over the ported ls6 pump. (since you're talking about saving money)

I never recommended a double roller, in fact I am pretty sure i said to get a stock chain (ls2), or if HE felt it wasnt enough, to upgrade to a Katech C5R chain, which I hope you dont think is a double roller.

Basically, ESR with you telling him to do the opposite of what I suggested.

[BadeffinLSx]

Stock PR length is 7.400. Some guys I know of put .025 inch longer push rods in to increase the lift of their cam, but I wouldn't go that route... JP Performance makes a pretty nice and beefy timing set and it's relatively cheap. And I bought a Melling High Volume Oil pump for my cam swap, but some say with a Melling you have to check clearance between the pump and the timing cover, but that COULD only be just a 98 thing. Damn 98 cars..